Why have bass trombones gotten to be so big and heavy and ugly ?

[LeTromboniste]

I like the purity of a straight tenor trombone. It's like a fork. A fork is mature and perfect in its form, and needs no additional design. Same with a trombone.

Happy abd relieved this was not the consensus few hundred years ago, otherwise we'd all play sackbuts.

Yes, what a shame it would be if we had to all sound like this and our main repertoire included a lot of soloistic stuff...

https://youtu.be/GLKUS9UPPis?si=1zImou-aTs2Qn6nG

[brassmedic]

As Gabe realised, I thought I’d toss a torch in the fire and watch the flames !!! Rattled a few cages and got some glib comments . Also some interesting insights. Size of sound is not about numbers, but about design. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but weight can be measured in the number of straps, rests poles and holding aids now employed by bass trombonists. To those who say nothing has changed, I say look around you. Weight, ergonomics and visual appeal are real issues.

Not sure I agree. Early 20th century bass trombones are ergonomic disasters for the most part. And then when they started adding a second valve, it got even worse. Lots of people ask me to modernize the ergonomics of their vintage bass bones, but nobody has ever asked to make a modern set up more like a vintage one. I think players just dealt with it because the rests and grips hadn't been invented yet. I don't see the existence of these aids as proof that trombones are "heavier" than they used to be.

[ghmerrill]

I think players just dealt with it because the rests and grips hadn't been invented yet.

I know I did (or tried to). There wasn't an alternative at that point.

I don't see the existence of these aids as proof that trombones are "heavier" than they used to be.

Yeah. And, again, what most of these aids do is to adjust the balance. They don't alter the weight, but they alter where the weight is. You don't notice the weight or need to respond to it with muscle support -- because the aid has neutralized that.

Addendum: Sometimes (often?) you do need to alter the weight as well in order to achieve the (more or less) neutral balance that the "device" (Bullet Brace, Axe Handle, ...) gets you close to. That's where a suitably sized counterweight comes in. What you (at least, I) want to achieve is reduction of any squeezing/grabbing/levering of the horn with the left hand.

[Finetales]

I used to own an Olds S24G and it it took literally 10 seconds for my left hand to be in significant pain when playing it. Same is true of the P22 I've tried.

Stock 72H is just about the only vintage bass I've tried that didn't suck ergonomically. 70H is mega front heavy, Duo Gravis isn't terrible but the side by side triggers are not fun, TR180 Glantz bar is very cumbersome, my British G bass was horrendous in every way, etc.

Modern horns are so much better ergonomically.

[RustBeltBass]

Happy abd relieved this was not the consensus few hundred years ago, otherwise we'd all play sackbuts.

Yes, what a shame it would be if we had to all sound like this and our main repertoire included a lot of soloistic stuff...

https://youtu.be/GLKUS9UPPis?si=1zImou-aTs2Qn6nG

It sounds very beautiful, thank you for sharing.

[blast]

Few instruments were so underdeveloped 100 years ago compared to bass trombone.

My Conn Fuchs is one hundred years old. Hardly underdeveloped. Much copied. Still wonderful. Still pretty, Still light.
A member of the audience recently came up to me a said how beautiful my trombone was. Rath R8 with scratch lacquer finish. Pretty, light and a great blow.

[Burgerbob]

Few instruments were so underdeveloped 100 years ago compared to bass trombone.

My Conn Fuchs is one hundred years old. Hardly underdeveloped. Much copied. Still wonderful. Still pretty, Still light.
A member of the audience recently came up to me a said how beautiful my trombone was. Rath R8 with scratch lacquer finish. Pretty, light and a great blow.

It only had one valve. And how many Fuchs were made? I think that's an exception that proves the rule.

[WGWTR180]

As Gabe realised, I thought I’d toss a torch in the fire and watch the flames !!! Rattled a few cages and got some glib comments . Also some interesting insights. Size of sound is not about numbers, but about design. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but weight can be measured in the number of straps, rests poles and holding aids now employed by bass trombonists. To those who say nothing has changed, I say look around you. Weight, ergonomics and visual appeal are real issues.

Not sure I agree. Early 20th century bass trombones are ergonomic disasters for the most part. And then when they started adding a second valve, it got even worse. Lots of people ask me to modernize the ergonomics of their vintage bass bones, but nobody has ever asked to make a modern set up more like a vintage one. I think players just dealt with it because the rests and grips hadn't been invented yet. I don't see the existence of these aids as proof that trombones are "heavier" than they used to be.

Many of the modern bass trombones that I have tried are designed poorly with levers in the improper place for me. So if I lived near you and was playing one of the ones I'm speaking of I'd be visiting your shop and asking for some modifications. Most players just live with it because they either think it's good, they don't have a choice, OR because they just think they need to strap it to their hand.

[LeTromboniste]

I'll say this, I've never played any bass trombone, of any kind, where using a strap was not a big improvement in ergonomics. From bass sackbut to romantic German trombones to 20th century classic models to a big heavy modern horn with two Hagmann valves, they were all nicer to hold (and none remained uncomfortable) with a strap.

[tbdana]

I'll say this, I've never played any bass trombone, of any kind, where using a strap was not a big improvement in ergonomics. From bass sackbut to romantic German trombones to 20th century classic models to a big heavy modern horn with two Hagmann valves, they were all nicer to hold (and none remained uncomfortable) with a strap.

I don't know if it's a change in horns or just a change in me. Back before I took my decades-long break, I never had any issue holding my bass trombones. It never even occurred to me that it could be a problem. But since starting back, if I try to play my current horn (Greenhoe Bach 50) without the Neotech grip I use, it feels tremendously cumbersome, awkward and heavy. I just chalk it up to being decades older, but I suppose changes in horn configuration and weight could be the culprit.

[LeTromboniste]

https://youtu.be/Ft1YdMZdgM8?si=1L76QmwrELhUtnwT

Are you actually suggesting that Michael Mulcahy, one of the finest tenor trombonists in the world today, sounds like a bass Trombone?

I don't like that last comment. That just slams down any chance at discussion or debate.

But fine, I'll play the game I'll put my head in the lion's mouth. Yesterday, I read through the start of this thread, and I didn't look at the caption and clicked play and listened to the video while doing e-mails, before returning later to read this thread further. I was very surprised to find out who it was and the points you brought up because my first thoughts when listening had been "wow this is some very clear-sounding bass playing", and then when the second trombone came in I thought there was a fairly clear distinction of sound, that the higher part was not just higher but also brighter and more of a tenor's voice, to the first player's baritone-y voice.

So yes, in this particular piece, in this particular video, to my ears, Michael Mulcahy did sound like a bass trombone, kind of. And that's not a critique in this case, but a compliment. In that video, he sounds exactly like what I would like to sound a lot of the time if I still played modern bass. A very clear and clean bass sound that's not tubby or dead and not needlessly massive, and has plenty of brilliance and lightness, while still having a more bass-baritone-y voice to it than my ideal tenor sound. I'd love to ask him if that's just a result of equipment, or if that's the sound he was particularly going for on that recording, because my assumption at first was it must have been the latter.

[TomInME]

I think that video is more likely an example of how Mulcahy's sound has range and isn't just one color. And I have doubts that he would dip into that color outside of a solo (duet) context.

Players like Michael Mulcahy and Friedman aren't the problem, it's players who THINK they're Mulcahy or Friedman, using the same equipment but not getting the same sound.

Charlie Vernon reputedly used no leadpipe for a while, just a mouthpiece holder, and >90% of other players would sound like tubas if they did that. Of course, 90% of players think they're in the top 10%.

[LeTromboniste]

I think that video is more likely an example of how Mulcahy's sound has range and isn't just one color. And I have doubts that he would dip into that color outside of a solo (duet) context.

Players like Michael Mulcahy and Friedman aren't the problem, it's players who THINK they're Mulcahy or Friedman, using the same equipment but not getting the same sound.

Charlie Vernon reputedly used no leadpipe for a while, just a mouthpiece holder, and >90% of other players would sound like tubas if they did that. Of course, 90% of players think they're in the top 10%.

Exactly

[Kbiggs]

Do you mean ugly like this Chris?

IMG_4839.jpeg

It might not win any prizes, but it's beautiful to me.

(For the tool-hounds out there, this is Bach 50 with Instrument Innovations valves. The wrap is a combination of parts from two different horns, pieced together to make and open wrap with the original crooks. John Sandhagen did the original work on it--he got the brief exactly right.)

Yes, I use an older Sheridan Get-a-Grip. I've used something or other to hold my basses since my late 20's. I'm taller, thin, and my hands aren't particularly large. Let's face it--the trombone in general, and bass (and contrabass!) trombones in particular, are among the least ergonomic instruments in common use. Small wonder that we need grips, straps, poles, etc., to hold them.

[Finetales]

I'll say this, I've never played any bass trombone, of any kind, where using a strap was not a big improvement in ergonomics. From bass sackbut to romantic German trombones to 20th century classic models to a big heavy modern horn with two Hagmann valves, they were all nicer to hold (and none remained uncomfortable) with a strap.

Yeah, I don't think it's physically possible to make a bass trombone with 2 valves and split triggers that doesn't put the left hand in a compromising position. It's an un-ergonomic instrument by nature. Even the most comfortable modern basses (Yamaha 830/835 comes to mind) are still better with a strap. More people using straps/grips to prevent hand problems than they used to isn't somehow proof that modern bass trombones are harder to hold than older ones; grips/straps are just a more recent development.

Trigger placement and weight balance are everything, and old horns often get one or both of those very wrong. On both singles and doubles. You can have a light single, but if it's front heavy it'll still torque your hands and cause problems long-term. See also: Conn 70H.

[heldenbone]

Not sure I agree. Early 20th century bass trombones are ergonomic disasters for the most part. And then when they started adding a second valve, it got even worse. Lots of people ask me to modernize the ergonomics of their vintage bass bones, but nobody has ever asked to make a modern set up more like a vintage one. I think players just dealt with it because the rests and grips hadn't been invented yet. I don't see the existence of these aids as proof that trombones are "heavier" than they used to be.

Anyone who has played a slide-tuned Olds bass can easily attest to the truth of this statement. Probably the heaviest slide ever made, and terribly bell-heavy too.

[Savio]

I wonder how much popcorn Chris has been nibbled when watching this tread? But isn't mostly all bass trombones 562 bore size? From the early 70h to all modern bass trombones. I know there are dual bore but still. I had a 10 1/2 bell size in the eighties but it seems to be gone these days. Isn't it mostly mouthpieces that has gone bigger. Maybe other designs like leadpipe and things I admit I don't have a clue about. But bore size is still 562? It has always been that? Some think adding a valve make it bigger but it only add more possibilities. Isn't it so? My 70h was front heavy so I cut of the tuning wheel

Leif

[brassmedic]

Even the most comfortable modern basses (Yamaha 830/835 comes to mind) are still better with a strap.

That's funny, I always thought Yamaha was among the worst ergonomically. When George Stucel and then Larry Minick were first doing the split trigger conversions, they angled the finger lever so it could be operated with the middle finger while still clearing the bottom two fingers that are holding the slide brace. Then Yamaha started having the lever go straight down, parallel to the lower slide tube. Never made any sense to me, but I guess it all depends on the player.

[tbonesullivan]

That's funny, I always thought Yamaha was among the worst ergonomically. When George Stucel and then Larry Minick were first doing the split trigger conversions, they angled the finger lever so it could be operated with the middle finger while still clearing the bottom two fingers that are holding the slide brace. Then Yamaha started having the lever go straight down, parallel to the lower slide tube. Never made any sense to me, but I guess it all depends on the player.

It really all depends on the person and how you grip it. If you have a long enough index finger and use the "Yeo grip" like I do, the Yamaha ergonomics are pretty much perfect. I almost wonder if that is the grip that was intended by the designers for Yamaha basses when they first started making independent basses. It just makes it easier to both support the brace and use the paddle for me. I also like it because it keeps the paddle out of the way enough that I can just hold the horn for the F trigger, if there's no real reason to use the second valve.

Though it all depends on having the right hand shape and size for any trigger configuration.

Now I go back to pondering how Doug Yeo plays so well on such a cave of a mouthpiece.

[ghmerrill]

If you have a long enough index finger and use the "Yeo grip" like I do, the Yamaha ergonomics are pretty much perfect.

I gave that a really good try (with my Getzen 1052). It worked! And actually felt pretty good (after it stopped feeling a bit odd). But I rejected it because I lost the ability to hook the slide with my little finger while making fast mute changes. So I finally got a Bullet Brace (which I'd been using on my previous horn) configured just right -- after what seems like weeks of tweaking it -- and added a counterweight, and that works great now (without having to do any bending/cutting to the Gb valve paddle).

[tbonesullivan]

I gave that a really good try (with my Getzen 1052). It worked! And actually felt pretty good (after it stopped feeling a bit odd). But I rejected it because I lost the ability to hook the slide with my little finger while making fast mute changes. So I finally got a Bullet Brace (which I'd been using on my previous horn) configured just right -- after what seems like weeks of tweaking it -- and that works great now (without having to do any bending/cutting to the Gb valve paddle).

Ahh, that is another consideration, especially depending on the rep you're playing. I'm doing almost entirely classical / legit stuff on bass trombone, so things like a mute only show up once a year or so. I also use my pinky that way, and thanks to guitar playing / how my hand is built, I am still able to hold onto the inner slide when using the Yeo grip.

[brassmedic]

It really all depends on the person and how you grip it. If you have a long enough index finger and use the "Yeo grip" like I do, the Yamaha ergonomics are pretty much perfect. I almost wonder if that is the grip that was intended by the designers for Yamaha basses when they first started making independent basses. It just makes it easier to both support the brace and use the paddle for me. I also like it because it keeps the paddle out of the way enough that I can just hold the horn for the F trigger, if there's no real reason to use the second valve.

Though it all depends on having the right hand shape and size for any trigger configuration.

Now I go back to pondering how Doug Yeo plays so well on such a cave of a mouthpiece.

Yeah, I definitely had the thought that perhaps Doug influenced the design to work with the particular grip he uses. I tried that grip once just for fun - It felt absolutely horrible. I guess it's just strange to me that they would design all of their bass trombones to be held with a grip that only a minority of players actually use. YMMV.

[blast]

Okay, so we have pretty much denied that bass trombones have gotten bigger. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and I wouldn't be so rude as to say that a players trombone is ugly (ken). So, we are left with heavy, and there I stand my ground. I've tried playing some of this heavy stuff and found I couldn't hold it up for longer periods. Don't tell me that someone needed to invent straps and rests...it wasn't even a conversation when I was a kid. People held trombones up. I've been holding a double valve bass up for 53 years, but I choose carefully. Balance is important, as is weight. The only drawback with my Rotax section is that it is heavier than my Hagmann set. It's not much weight, so I'll put up with it. Much of the weight in a modern double is in the scaffolding of solid rods that brace the valve section. Perhaps that gives a certain blow....who knows ?

[Fausto]

good morning in my opinion it seems strange as a statement, years ago I tried a bass and found it cumbersome and big and I gave up, lately I tried some in anticipation of replacing mine with a 10.5" bell and heavy with which I am now happy, I found them all with 9.5" bells and light therefore easy to play, especially Edwards, very easy. I can't say that they are ugly but rather more similar to a tenor. in the end I gave up and kept what I had. perhaps it depends on how you like it or what you need. or what you expect from an instrument. this from my little experience

[Kbiggs]

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and I wouldn't be so rude as to say that a players trombone is ugly (ken).

That’s all right, Chris: I admit it. It was uglier before the last time it was chem cleaned, and my gold bell is even uglier. It sounds good, though, which is what matters.

So, we are left with heavy, and there I stand my ground. I've tried playing some of this heavy stuff and found I couldn't hold it up for longer periods. Don't tell me that someone needed to invent straps and rests...it wasn't even a conversation when I was a kid. People held trombones up.

I used to have heavy equipment, an Edwards B454 with a heavier gauge bell, #3 leadpipe, etc. It was too much—the “tuba-on-a-stick” sound. Sometimes wisdom comes with age. My Bach is still heavy, but it weighs much less than a B454. (I don’t know how heavy a 502i is.)

I consider my Get-a-Grip and my Ergobone as assistive devices, kind of like glasses. I need glasses to see, I need something to hold the horn.

I've been holding a double valve bass up for 53 years, but I choose carefully. Balance is important, as is weight.

Balance is definitely important, both front-to-back as well as side-to-side. My Bach, as ugly as it is, is fairly balanced both ways.

Much of the weight in a modern double is in the scaffolding of solid rods that brace the valve section. Perhaps that gives a certain blow....who knows ?

Everything makes a difference.

[Burgerbob]

Maybe those grip aids should have been around from the start.

[BGuttman]

Maybe those grip aids should have been around from the start.

Which is why some older designs had the bell brace fit in the webbing between the left thumb and forefinger. My King 7B was like this. So were some of the Olds and Holton models. This arrangement is a problem for people with short thumbs, though.

[brassmedic]

Maybe those grip aids should have been around from the start.

Which is why some older designs had the bell brace fit in the webbing between the left thumb and forefinger. My King 7B was like this. So were some of the Olds and Holton models. This arrangement is a problem for people with short thumbs, though.

But those designs were ergonomically worse. That's why nobody makes bass trombones that way anymore. A few people with unusually long fingers like it, but the vast majority find it more awkward than having the bell brace away from the lever. Lots of different systems were tried. There's a reason everyone settled on one type.

[brassmedic]

Okay, so we have pretty much denied that bass trombones have gotten bigger. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, and I wouldn't be so rude as to say that a players trombone is ugly (ken). So, we are left with heavy, and there I stand my ground. I've tried playing some of this heavy stuff and found I couldn't hold it up for longer periods. Don't tell me that someone needed to invent straps and rests...it wasn't even a conversation when I was a kid. People held trombones up. I've been holding a double valve bass up for 53 years, but I choose carefully. Balance is important, as is weight. The only drawback with my Rotax section is that it is heavier than my Hagmann set. It's not much weight, so I'll put up with it. Much of the weight in a modern double is in the scaffolding of solid rods that brace the valve section. Perhaps that gives a certain blow....who knows ?

What model, specifically, is the "heavy stuff" that you tried and couldn't hold up? And what model are you comparing it to?

[Kevbach33]

Maybe those grip aids should have been around from the start.

Which is why some older designs had the bell brace fit in the webbing between the left thumb and forefinger. My King 7B was like this. So were some of the Olds and Holton models. This arrangement is a problem for people with short thumbs, though.

For single valve, narrow (Conn-width) slide basses and tenors, for me having the brace in the thumb webbing is superior, as might dual valve, narrow slide and brace in thumb. (I admit to having XL fingers on L palms.)

It's when the slide is Bach-width that I much prefer having the "modern" setup with the thumb ahead of the bell brace. Any potential horn is disqualified if I can't adequately use the Yeo grip.

As to the thread itself, yes, a light bass can feel heavy in the hands if it's not balanced well. Thankfully the Getzen Eterna is one of the most balanced horns I've played, and it's fairly light. My Besson was not balanced well and tired me out after a session. I'm sure it was also heavier in general but never weighed my instruments.

Bigger? Yes, Getzen and Edwards are known for their big tuning slides; in contrast, I think the bell taper is not as fast as many other instruments (including the Besson). In this case, it's a balance in design. In general, maybe it's the popularity of dual bore slides and open leadpipes that makes it seem like the bass trombone SOUND has become bigger than years past, even though the ID difference is only .016".

Ugly? Completely in the eyes of the beholder. For me, rather than ugly, all axial valve basses are boring. They all look the same at a distance since there are not many ways to wrap the attachments.

[sf105]

The ergonomics have improved significantly, nothing is quite as front-heavy as my old Conn TIS horns (for which I now have various grips). I'm guessing that one of the heaviest horns is a Silver DuoGravis.

But I'm pleased to see that some the arms race from the 80's onwards has calmed down a bit.

Is some of the discomfort from the convolutions needed from the adoption of axial and Hagmann valves?

S

[tbonesullivan]

Maybe those grip aids should have been around from the start.

I kinda wish they had, or just more attention to ergonomics in general. Those were kind of hindered on the dependent side by many attempts to give the thumb the ability to actuate two valves, and somehow move between 1 and 2 valves. I'm so glad the first bass I got was made with split triggers.

I have tried a few of the various early dependent designs, and UGH.

[ghmerrill]

Thankfully the Getzen Eterna is one of the most balanced horns I've played, and it's fairly light.

I really like my Getzen, and as I've got it set up, it's a pleasure to play, however ...

It took me a while to get it to that point. I don't know about others, but it takes me what seems like an interminable amount of time to get a Bullet Brace (or Axe Handle) set up "just right" in the context of other things (a counterweight, how much it should weigh, and its position, adjustment of the triggers), and to the point that I can pick up the horn and know it will be comfortable and easy to play, with no unnecessary strain in playing or holding it.

Also, a couple of (related) complaints about the Getzen: What's with those valve linkages? I looked at them originally and thought "That's cool -- adjustable valve linkages." But HOW they adjust ... I don't get it. I expected a kind of turnbuckle mechanism where I could turn the center barrel to extend or shorten the link. But no.

This wouldn't be much of an irritant except that without adjusting the F trigger linkage I wasn't able to get the thumb trigger set up to work comfortably for me in conjunction with the finger trigger. This is important to me because I use the triggers A LOT. And it's come out fine -- but just more effort than it might have been.

I won't mention how sharp the horn seems to be built (or did I just do that?). I can live with that and adjust things accordingly. Just strikes me as a bit odd. But you'd have to pry the horn out of my cold dead hands.

[WGWTR180]

Do you mean ugly like this Chris?

IMG_4839.jpeg

It might not win any prizes, but it's beautiful to me.

(For the tool-hounds out there, this is Bach 50 with Instrument Innovations valves. The wrap is a combination of parts from two different horns, pieced together to make and open wrap with the original crooks. John Sandhagen did the original work on it--he got the brief exactly right.)

Yes, I use an older Sheridan Get-a-Grip. I've used something or other to hold my basses since my late 20's. I'm taller, thin, and my hands aren't particularly large. Let's face it--the trombone in general, and bass (and contrabass!) trombones in particular, are among the least ergonomic instruments in common use. Small wonder that we need grips, straps, poles, etc., to hold them.

I won’t call your horn ugly but I have never liked the valves offset on an inline instrument. I think that part is unattractive and it’s unnecessary. But that’s all I’ll say.

[TheBoneRanger]

A heavy Edwards with a 987 bell was what drove me to grip aids. That was impossible to hold up for a decent practice session.

But I’ve since moved to lighter instruments and kept the grip aids for a few reasons.

1. It’s ludicrous to hold an instrument using the two weakest fingers of my non-dominant hand

2. They allow me to control the angle of the instrument with much greater precision, increasing my accuracy and comfort on the horn.

These are the reasons I’d encourage bass trombone players to look in to such devices.

Andrew

[ghmerrill]

1. It’s ludicrous to hold an instrument using the two weakest fingers of my non-dominant hand

I like to think of the goal as having the instrument "rest" in my hand and provide complete freedom and lack of stress in using the valves.

[elmsandr]

…
Also, a couple of (related) complaints about the Getzen: What's with those valve linkages? I looked at them originally and thought "That's cool -- adjustable valve linkages." But HOW they adjust ... I don't get it. I expected a kind of turnbuckle mechanism where I could turn the center barrel to extend or shorten the link. But no.

This wouldn't be much of an irritant except that without adjusting the F trigger linkage I wasn't able to get the thumb trigger set up to work comfortably for me in conjunction with the finger trigger. This is important to me because I use the triggers A LOT. And it's come out fine -- but just more effort than it might have been.

As you’ve noticed by now, not a turnbuckle, just a double ended stud. One could kinda use it to adjust, but I don’t think it was intended for this use, at least not a variable one to be done regularly. I prefer to adjust the lever position by having it bent properly… but that is also a time consuming PITA. And better done by somebody else while you don’t watch. Usually needs to be what my hand needs, not what I ask for in my experience.

I won't mention how sharp the horn seems to be built (or did I just do that?). I can live with that and adjust things accordingly. Just strikes me as a bit odd. But you'd have to pry the horn out of my cold dead hands.

Yeah, the natural reaction to Bachs being way too long. If only we could get orchestras to stop going above 440.

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

Compare an Edwards bass to a Rath or a Kanstul 1662i, the bracing in particular. "Edge" bracing is massively inefficient when weight is considered. The Rath and 1662i have very little visible bracing in the valve wraps. Still, my Kanstul is heavier than my former 71h dual or the Conn 83h I had for a while. A new Edwards or Greenhoe are much heavier than the Kanstul.

Balance is important, yes, but a 6 lb balanced bass is still more work to play than a 3 lb balanced small tenor. And "balanced" only applies when the horn is held in one hand in 1st position. As soon as you move the slide the cog moves and the supports change, so the idea of balance only has a limited application.

[ghmerrill]

but I don’t think it was intended for this use, at least not a variable one to be done regularly.

In that case I'm mystified why that approach of fabricating the link was taken since a less expensive and less troublesome approach would have been to use non-adjustable links.

I prefer to adjust the lever position by having it bent properly… but that is also a time consuming PITA. And better done by somebody else while you don’t watch.

That's often done on the Gb lever, of course. But in this case I don't need that. I'm not at all sure it would work well on the thumb lever because it would change the arc through which it moves. But I'm not about to try it. I've got it adjusted just fine now, with Loctite on those threads. (Aside: As part of a project of getting those Chinese links to work better, I experimented with making some myself from parts intended for the radio-ccontrolled car/plane market. I wasn't satisfied with those results and finally got Mike Morse at Tuba Exchange to fix that for me (at shockingly low cost), but ended up with a set of minimal assemblies from Instrument Innovations. I wonder if those will fit my Getzen. If so, I may make some replacement links at some point.)

One of the advantages of using my previous (now "backup" horn -- the Chinese clone) for so long was that I got to experiment a lot with the ergonomics of it. I have a hacksaw and a torch, and I'm not afraid to use them. However, on that horn, the thumb lever was great, and required no adjustment at all. The finger lever for the Gb valve was entirely another matter. So it got cut and replaced with an adjustable (length and rotation) extension. Much experimental bending and parts-making took place.

[BPBasso]

I blame the trumpets.

[WGWTR180]

Compare an Edwards bass to a Rath or a Kanstul 1662i, the bracing in particular. "Edge" bracing is massively inefficient when weight is considered. The Rath and 1662i have very little visible bracing in the valve wraps. Still, my Kanstul is heavier than my former 71h dual or the Conn 83h I had for a while. A new Edwards or Greenhoe are much heavier than the Kanstul.

Balance is important, yes, but a 6 lb balanced bass is still more work to play than a 3 lb balanced small tenor. And "balanced" only applies when the horn is held in one hand in 1st position. As soon as you move the slide the cog moves and the supports change, so the idea of balance only has a limited application.

I completely disagree regarding your balance statement. So many things contribute to balance other than weight including lever placement.

[ghmerrill]

One problem is that different people, with different arms and hands, may feel that the same object balances differently.

[hyperbolica]

I completely disagree regarding your balance statement. So many things contribute to balance other than weight including lever placement.

The grip is important and we know bass bone is an ergo nightmare. But balance only applies to a one handed grip., and it changes when you move the slide and start playing.

[sf105]

no mention of fibreglass horns yet?

I remember Nev Roberts (30 years at the Halle) talking about how after a heavy recoding session of Carmina Burana he woke up and couldn't move his left arm until he'd loosened it up in the shower. He had a very early Bach 50 (the only one I really liked the sound of) that weighed about 3 1/2 tons.

[slidesix]

Hey, at least the 10 1/2 inch bells from the '80s have fallen out of favor!

On a side note, I remember way back when some of my contemporaries were talking about commissioning some sort of triple-rotor bass trombone. No idea what tuning they were planning for those attachments. It sounded like some sort of indy-indy-dependent setup though. More likely it was all talk and noone really intented to build one, although like tall tales more than one claimed to have heard of someone actually having one.

[ghmerrill]

Hey, at least the 10 1/2 inch bells from the '80s have fallen out of favor!

I'm pretty sure that was folded into an arms limitation treaty.

[WGWTR180]

I completely disagree regarding your balance statement. So many things contribute to balance other than weight including lever placement.

The grip is important and we know bass bone is an ergo nightmare. But balance only applies to a one handed grip., and it changes when you move the slide and start playing.

Yeh but that’s not my point. It’s okay. Most don’t get it.

[ghmerrill]

Yeh but that’s not my point. It’s okay. Most don’t get it.

I think Archimedes did.

[JohnL]

I don't know that any modern bass trombones are as heavy as the ones people used to play with C extensions on the second valve.

[BPBasso]

Speaking of big, ugly, and heavy ... doesn't the OP play contrabass trombone as well?!

All that tubing and bracing... long, heavy extensions on the waterkey... knocking over the stand of the person in front of you.... 30mm birdbath for a mouthpiece.... imagine carrying the case?! Must need a dolly and a professional mover to get anywhere. :]